Politics A
Öykü Penceresi Metni
- Brexit! It's happening, it's not, the people want it, they don't. . . You know J.S. this is a perfect example of what is wrong with Democracy. You let the uneducated masses make decisions and it turns into a mess!!Perfect example of my ship of fools analogy if you ask me!
- You may not like the decisions Plato but the choice has to be given to the people. Liberty is crucial for a legitimate state.
- No – Democracy doesn’t work. Where I lived (Athens) therewas democracy, you know what happened . . . poor decisions being made. We wererun by self-interested tyrants and democrats, ended up conquered by the Spartan’s. Worst of all my mentor Socrates was executed for challenging the majority view![i]
- I feel you are being subjective in your approach. I’m not denying that you can get bad decisions but educated adults should have the vote in a representative democracy. The system is there only to carry out what the peoplewant, they decide what is right and moral and just. They need to be free topursue their own happiness, express their own beliefs and values.
- The only time the State should interfere is when an individual is going to harm someone else or infringe on their liberties.[ii]
- Look Democracy is just a bad idea, you let the uneducated masses make decisions on their state and the Govt carries out the majority decision. So 51% could dictate the decision even though those that no what is actually best for all could be in the 49%. In addition the masses are self-centered,their decisions are clearly going to be based on what will benefit them. A decision that benefits them will be viewed better than one for all or even the majority.[iii]
- Well my representative democracy would have had the capacity to remove and replace leaders through an electoral process. The state’s power should be minimal and is there to protect the liberty of its citizens.[iv]
- Yes that is a flaw but rather than your extreme response we could give additional votes to the intellectual elite to allow their views to carry more weight in the process. That can help avoid the tyranny of the majority.
- Sounds good J.S. but what you end up with is rulers and voters being driven by their desires like material gain. If everyone is given equal say then those with more understanding of the issues are lost in the myriad of the ill-informed.[v]
- Well we could use job status as a means to decide who the more educated in society are and they can have additional voting power – that would stop the ‘tyranny of the majority’ you’re worried about. Unless you think you have a better idea?[vi]
- So who decides who the intellectual elite are, how is this special little club decided?
- Well I hate break it to you but I’ve known a lot of people in top jobs who were not the most educated!
- My system is quite a simple solution really. The state selects the most able to carry out tasks. Those at the top are there because they have the ability to look objectively at things. They have the virtue of their moral superiority and this ability means their decisions are what is best for the State and its members.[vii]
- Plato you can’t just say it’s ok to let some people lead because they are better than you! The decision must be made by the people if it is to be justified and the only thing the State should do is carry out the Will of its citizens not tell them what is best for them (ever heard of a ‘Nanny State’).
- Society only progresses if it’s people are free to debate and decide what is just or good. An accountable government creates knowledgeable citizens. Good decisions will come when you give people liberty and the ability to hold free and equal discussions.[viii]
- Besides who are these oh so special people? Did you have aparticular person in mind?
- Such as....
- Well philosophers are probably the best in my view
- Well it would have to be the people with superior thought processes, you know those who have made it out of the cave and can see and understand the world as it actually is.
- Oh what a surprising revelation! You know this sounds a tad totalitarian in its structure. Plus I’d be keen to hear if decisions are based on a utilitarian idea of good and how does that rest with each individual’s definition of what is virtuous and good?[ix]
- At least my system legitimate authority is clear as the state only has elected representatives and sovereignty stays with the people.Just so I’m clear in your state it’s about holding power rather than having any form of legitimate authority?
- How would you get them to accept it and make it legitimate authority then?
- Not at all J.S. the people will consent to this system, they would accept that the Philosopher King’s are making morally right decisions so they’d accept the decisions and who has the power to make the decisions.[x]
- Well it would involve a white lie, a 'Noble Lie' if you like.[xi]
- A lie? Seriously a lie, and you expect people to accept your theory?!!
- It’s my theory and I’ll lie if I want to!
- But Plato free open expression and discussion are essential for society to progress. Representation is key to this. People must be able to openly discuss their issues, concerns, and wants. Representative government is essential for the protection and enhancement of both liberty and reason. [xii]
- JS this is where we disagree, there is no need for the state to be representative in terms of giving people the opportunity to air their wants or concerns. You need to remember the average citizen has no idea what is actually best for them. [xiii]
- People have the capacity to develop and better themselves the State should only be involved or represent them in politics to protect their right to do this.Representative democracies should take a laissez faire approach and are less likely to want to intervene in a citizen’s life unless they have to.[xiv]
- You see JS this is where I feel you are too positive about people. Representation is important to me too but not in the way you see it.The State is made up of those intelligent enough to see the big picture, those who understand the forms.
- The Philosopher Kings are able to represent all members of society as they are able to use reason to make decisions on behalf of everyone. They don't need to waste time trying to represent each citizen and their opinions and wants. It is through seeing the 'truth' that they represent what is best for society as a whole. [xv]
- But Plato that is not representation in its truest sense. People should be free and enjoy liberty, the state is representative as it is chosen by them to represent their views and wishes but not to tell them what they can and can't do. The only time the State should do that is when a citizen's pursuit of their liberties would result in harm to others. [xvi]
- People know best what they want to pursue and they should be encouraged to do this as much as possible. Liberty must be protected but as long as it doesn't cause harm to others. The State represents citizens in so much as they given the means and opportunities to better society and their right to do this is protected. [xvii]
- That sounds like a good principle but you seem a little but thin on where this harm principle actually starts and stops. Is a small infringement allowed or can is no infraction acceptable. This all seems a little messy to me and overall you seem to be allowing people too much say.
- Representation should be where someone who is clearly more knowledgeable than the citizens is able to make decisions on their behalf.
- Well I agree with that idea I think those with more skill or knowledge in a particular area could have more weight given to their views. But people still have the right to remove them if they don't defend liberty
- Well for me people can pursue their role in society and interests as long as they keep away from the political system.
- Well for me people must be able to pursue their own interests and the state has to give them the liberty to do so, but it is crucial that they are involved in the political system and help choose those from within society to represent and protect their liberty.
- Well then we can both at least agree that Democracy is flawed - I think it leads to poor selfish ill informed decisions and we both agree that it can be abused and lead to a tyranny of the majority. I suppose it is how we try to avoid that happening that leads us down different paths.
- So you have a system where rulers have no family, private property etc so they only make morally right decisions – a virtuous society.Like many ideas Plato, I feel it sounds much better on paper.
- Well of course! We’re philosophers everything we say sounds good in theory. No point putting it into practice cause according to Descartes we may not even be here having this conversation!
- HAHAHAHAHA!
- THE END
- [i] History Channel, The Death of Socrates, Available from: - https://www.historychannel.com.au/this-day-in-history/socrates-sentenced-to-death/[Accessed: - 2/4/2019][ii] Heywood, A(1997) Politics, London: Macmillian Press Ltd[iii] Heywood, A(1997) Politics, London: Macmillian Press Ltd[iv] Mill, J.S(1859) On Liberty, Reissued (2008).London: Oxford University Press[v] Stanford Encyclopaedia (2014) Democracy - 3. The Problem of Democratic Citizenship. Available from https://plato.stanford.edu/entries/democracy/[Accessed 13/4/2019][vi] Mill, J.S(1859) On Liberty, Reissued (2008).London: Oxford University Press[vii] Warburton,N. (2006). Philosophy The Classics. 3rded. Abingdon: Routledge.[viii] Warburton,N. (2006). Philosophy The Classics. 3rded. Abingdon: Routledge.
- [ix] Stanford Encyclopaedia (2014) Plato and Totalitarianism. Available from https://plato.stanford.edu/entries/plato-ethics-politics/#Total [Accessed 9/4/2019] [x] Plato (380BCE) The Republic (SecondEdition2007) London: Penguin Books Ltd [xi] Alison, J. 2012. Human Virtue in Plato and Aristotle. Available from: - http://www.hep.upenn.edu/~johnda/Papers/Virtue.pdf [Accessed: - 18/4/2019] [xii] Mill,J.S(1859) On Liberty,Reissued (2008).London: Oxford University Press [xiii] Alison, J.2012. Human Virtue in Plato and Aristotle. Available from: - http://www.hep.upenn.edu/~johnda/Papers/Virtue.pdf[Accessed: - 18/4/2019] [xiv] Heywood, A(1997) Politics, London: Macmillian Press Ltd [xv] Plato(380BCE) The Republic (SecondEdition2007) London: Penguin Books Ltd [xvi] Warburton,N. (2006). Philosophy The Classics. 3rd ed. Abingdon: Routledge.
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